Note: This transcript was adapted from a radio script. It may contain grammar errors and format quirks that certain readers find offensive.
JOHN MCCAIN: Thank you for that kind introduction. Please sit down and relax and those in the balcony remain standing! Thank you... (laughing)
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: You’re listening to Stranglehold - I’m Lauren Chooljian - and THAT is Senator John McCain.
JOHN MCCAIN: It’s wonderful to be back. Thank you so much
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN:I want to tell you a quick story about McCain from 2007 - it’s a NH primary classic.
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: He was holding this town hall style campaign event - the idea is, voters who show up can ask the candidate anything they want.
JOHN MCCAIN: Yes sir could I go over here and then you ma'am
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN:McCain did a LOT of these- this particular one is at a World War II museum - and he took questions for about an hour… and one of them comes from this mom - she’s standing in the second row. Clutching the microphone with both hands.
MOM: Good evening senator Today unfortunately, I wear a black bracelet in memory of my son who lost his life in Baghdad. I would like to know, sir, if you would wear this so that you could remember your mission and their mission in support of them.
JOHN MCCAIN: Um I would be honored.
MOM: Thank you sir
JOHN MCCAIN: And greatful.
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: Someone in the audience that day told me McCain’s reaction felt so authentic - and you can see if you watch the CSPAN video of this event - he’s very emotional.
JOHN MCCAIN: May I ask how old Matthew was? Twenty two. Thank you for his service. Yes ma’am I will wear this, thank you.
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: John McCain would wear that bracelet until the day he died…
And this story - it gets held up as like this perfect, unscripted moment between a candidate and a normal NH voter.
There are tons of other stories of this - some show off a candidates’ humanity - others are not as flattering...
CLAREMONT VOTER: Senator I have one real quick question. What law school did you attend and where did you place in that class? And the other questio is, quite quickly.
JOE BIDEN: I think I tend to have a much higher IQ than you do. I suspect. I went to law school on a full academic scholarship, the only one in my, in my class.
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: If you were thinking to yourself - is that Joe Biden - yes, that was Joe Biden in 1987, the first time he ran for president.
CLEARLY that voter touched a nerve - law school was a sensitive subject for Biden - there was news before this that he failed a class because of plagiarism… and then here comes THIS voter.
JOE BIDEN: And I’d be delighted to sit down and compare my IQ to yours if you like Frank.
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: And so the takeaway from these stories - these moments - was look what NH can offer - we’re a place where these REAL, unscripted moments can happen - our voters reveal unique perspectives on political leaders, potential leaders of the free world…
But that leaves me wondering - is that still the case?
LAUREN: OK. You ready?
JASON MOON: I'm ready.
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: Jason Moon is actually where I got this whole idea from. He's a reporter here at NHPR and he's been out on the trail lately and he told me, he’s been seeing something different, something that makes him think, are these authentic moments really still possible?
JASON MOON: It can seem like that interaction between the voter and the candidate is kind of getting co-opted, manipulated by outside forces.
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: So, Jason.
JASON MOON: Yes, Lauren.
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: I don't think we can really start this without defining for people what bird dogging is.
JASON MOON: Right, so birdogging is something we see a fair share of here in NH with the presidential primary and all the candidates that come by but it’s not unique to the primary certainly, it happens in politics everywhere and basically, it's when a voter comes to an event, prepared.
BIRDDOGGER 1: Hi, I'm Alison. I'm with Rights in Democracy, New Hampshire. And as a young voter, one of my major concerns is climate change.
JASON MOON: It's kind of like a professionalized question asking of candidates by voters.
BIRDDOGGER 2: Will you take the no fossil fuel money pledge? Will you do this with us?
JASON MOON: But that can mean a lot of things. It can mean, you know, just as a voter who, like, really knows what they want to ask and does it everywhere
BIRDDOGGER 3: It’s a simple, one sentence pledge to refuse any donations by fossil fuel companies or executrices.
JASON MOON: Or it can be like a paid staffer at an advocacy group. And so to them, the town hall is like a great way to get access to these candidates and to get their issues out in front of all the TV cameras and all the voters and the candidate themselves. It's not like what we think of maybe as like the typical voter who is like, oh, I'm just running to this event after work. And like maybe I think of a question on the way there or maybe you don't think of a question at all.
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: And you've seen a lot of this because I think this is your second primary? Right?
JASON MOON: Yes.
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: But you also had kind of - shall we say - I don't know, a good hunting metaphor behind the curtain. That's not hunting at all. But you got to peek behind the curtain at how bird dogging works. Please enlighten us
JASON MOON: Yes. So several months back, I got a chance to witness some of that preparation to see bird dogging training
ISSAC: So we might get through this before 8:30 but we have about an hour and a half blocked up...
JASON MOON: It was in this little office, conference room type space. There were maybe a dozen people sitting in a circle of folding chairs.
LAUREN: Yeah what kind of people do this training?
JASON MOON: Well it was an interesting mix from what I could tell. All age ranges, one person was a state rep, another person looked like they were maybe in their 20s and they all kinda had, like, here’s what I think I would want to ask a candidate about but they kind of wanted to workshop their questions and figure out like how do i really get the most out of seeing so and so at a town hall
ISSAC: Super excited to be in the room with you all. We have just a really, really incredible opportunity this year to change the narrative. By getting up close and personal with these candidates.
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: I'm sorry. Change the narrative?
JASON MOON: Yeah. That's the name of the game here, Lauren. I mean, this training is being led by two people from a group called Rights and Democracy, the liberal activist group, advocacy group here in New Hampshire. And basically what they're teaching people here is how to deconstruct the town hall and then kind of reverse engineer it for your own aims.
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: How do they do that?
JASON: Well, they role play and they act it out. So they even have like a fake candidate comes by for the training
LAUREN: No - no.
FEMALE TRAINER: Oh, here he is. Roosevelt Abraham! Wow. What an opportunity!
JASON MOON: Oh, yeah. Gives a stump speech and everything.
ISSAC AS CANDIDATE: And actually, my second cousins, third wife's son is from Manchester. So coming here, I really feel like I'm coming home.
JASON MOON: And then he takes questions from the trainees and easily wiggles out of their questions because, you know, they haven't been trained yet. So they don't know how to ask a good birddog question. Not yet.
TRAINEE: How do you feel about Medicare for all.
ISSAC AS CANDIDATE: I think Medicare for all is crucial. I think, of course, we all need health care. Thank you so much for your question. Other questions
TRAINEE: I’d like to follow up. Sorry. I just wanna make sure we can hear from everyone. Thank you, maam.
JASON MOON: And then they get down to how to workshop questions - how to do this better.
FEMALE TRAINER: So what do you think makes a good birddog question?
TRAINEE: Specific questions would be a good specific question.
ISSAC: The more specific, the better, the more specific your question is. I know how to spell fansites, the harder it is for a candidate to wiggle out of answering it. And if they do wiggle out of it. If your question is, you know, tell me yes or no and then tell me why. And they don't do that. Then everyone in the audience is going to have the same thought you just did: They didn't answer that question.
JASON MOON: They even do fake interviews with fake reporters. So they handed out these like dry erase markers. They split the group into two lines and one line was the reporters and one line was the voters. And they, like, practiced how to talk about. The candidate they had just seen to the reporter.
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: What are the markers for?
JASON MOON: Oh - the markers are the microphones!
TRAINEE: I worked on kind of a sound soundbite process because I'm really concerned about disability rights. OK. So in general, I like to say disability rights are human rights because it's true and it's striking. And hopefully it's something that people remember
FEMALE TRAINER: I like that. that's memorable. So anybody else remember have a memorable soundbite that they heard?
JASON MOON: And then, of course, I'm there. With the microphone
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: Oh so meta. Yeah. So you're there recording the them practicing how to be recorded by a reporter. I mean, what was your observation of all this like dDid you feel like you were being, I don't know, cheated in a way, people were practicing how to talk to you?
JASON MOON: Well, in that moment, I was more happy than anything that I was being able I was able to see this because you have a sense that this stuff is happening. And you know that both campaigns and activists, they're trained, they prepare, the way they talk to media is a whole different way. But just to be able to be in the room and to and to see this playing out and to hear them talk so openly and earnestly about what they were doing. There was no shame to it.
ISSAC: Elizabeth Warren is doing raffle tickets for questions. So. So the whole thing about being up front and center raising your hand doesn't really matter when they do that. But if you go with a bunch of people and you get a whole bunch of people to get raffle tickets and then you all give them to like one person who really wants to ask a question and they have, you know, like you can take turns that can be another way to just try to increase the odds that you will get be able to get called on.
FEMALE TRAINER: Just get tickets. I mean, there are other there are ways to manipulate, you know, manipulate the manipulation.
JASON MOON: Basically, the feeling in this room is that they're tired of feeling like they're manipulated at presidential candidate events. You know, the candidate comes in and gives a stump speech and maybe someone asks them some questions. But, you know, they pivot out of it and switch, get back to the things they want to talk about and maybe don't answer the tough questions. And you know, the people in this room, their feeling is, wait a minute. The town hall, it's not it's supposed to be for us. Right. It’s supposed to be our chance to meet the candidate, vet the candidate, ask them the tough questions. And it's gotten so airbrushed by the campaigns and the candidates that they've decided, you know, we need to up our game to match their game. So if they're going to manipulate, well, we're going to do the same thing.
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: Yeah. It's just so funny because maybe you've also had this experience like as a reporter. I mean, when I see these people coming up to the mic, and they say, you know, I'm from so-and-so advocacy group, I don't take as serious notes because I feel like it just it just doesn't feel as authentic to me.
JASON MOON: Well, yeah, it can feel very inauthentic. And a lot of times that doesn't get acknowledged in the room. There's this dance going on and everyone kind of knows it, but no one tips their hat to it. But occasionally candidates will call it out. I was at an Amy Klobuchar event a couple of months back and she started to get birddogged.
BIRDDOGGER 4: So coming from a legal background, you understand perhaps more than other candidates what Trump is doing to our courts.
JASON MOON: This guy is like sitting in this folding chair outside under this big tree. And he starts asking Amy Klobuchar about the Supreme Court and whether she would consider adding seats to it, something like that. And he is like filming her with his phone, like he's holding his phone up like just beneath his face as he's asking the question, which is, you know, right away, is not like the way humans talk to each other
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: Turns out.
JASON MOON: Yeah. And she just calls it out she's like, look, hey, like whoever you're filming me for, like, hi.
AMY KLOBUCHAR: And since you're recording me for someone, hi person that's trying to get me on tape, how are you? Thanks for sending your guy to two events, but I called on him anyway.The, the other thing that I would. The other thing that I would add.
(music)
JASON MOON: So I went to this training. I saw the bird divers like getting ready, like sharpening their knives for the candidates. You know, then I'm out at these campaign events. I'm seeing, you know, instances here and there. Bird dogging. I'm seeing candidates call out bird doggers. And I'm just going to say I'm just kind of fascinated by the whole thing. But I wanted to get a sense of like what other people think about it. Is it like is it totally ruining town halls for like, quote unquote, normal voters or, you know, what's what are other people thinking about it? So we went out recently. Should I go all the way through?
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: Well, let's take a break.
JASON MOON: OK.
—— BREAK
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: So. You went to see Vice President Biden when he was New Hampshire recently.
JASON MOON: That's right.
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: So tell me about it.
JASON MOON: So I went with our colleague Josh Rogers, a reporter in the newsroom who's been covering politics in Hampshire for many years. And we were we actually got kind of looking for string on a couple different stories. So we were talking to voters. Well, the idea was we're gonna talk to voters about a lot of things. But, you know, I had these bird dogging questions on my mind.
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: As you would
JASON MOON: As I would. And so we get. It's at this ski area in New Hampshire, like of course, like it was, can I just say, it was like it was so very New Hampshire. It's like fall. There's like all the TV trucks are like parked at the bottom of ski hill with the foliage happening on the hill. The WMUR Channel Nine truck had like foliage design on it. It was like you couldn't be more New Hampshire
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: Oh that’s classic.
JASON MOON: Anyways, so we go to this Joe Biden event and we, we kind of set up our gear for the speech and then start chatting with voters. And the first woman we talk to, she's sitting up, you know, up close, like she got here early for the event.
JOSH ROGERS: What brings you here?
KATHY HOEY: I’m here to see all the candidates. This is my second time seeing Biden
LAUREN: And what's her name?
JASON MOON: Kathy Hoey.
KATHY HOEY: I'm a Democrat, but I saw all the Republicans pretty much last time when they were here because they're here. And it's the thing to do when you're here. If you enjoy politics, which I do.
JASON MOON: You know, since she had been to all these events and see all these candidates, I thought she was the perfect person to ask about bird dogging because she's probably seen it. And sure enough, she has.
KATHY HOEY: I know the Alzheimer's lady and the HIV lady and the gun guy
JASON MOON: Which I just love because like, so do I, right? But the more we talked about it, the more I asked her about it. She didn't have a problem with it. You know, I asked her, like, do you get tired of hearing the same questions again and again? And she's like, no, it's you know, it's good to get them on the record, to get him on the record early.
JASON MOON (in interview): Because some people might say, well, like, you know, leave it to like, quote unquote, normal people to ask their questions.
KATHY HOEY: They’re normal people, too, they just are invested in the process more than other people might be, but they're just as normal and they represent, I think, a constituency of their own, which is great.
JASON MOON: So she really sees the value in it. And I thought that was really interesting that that here she was, someone who's like, really connected to these events, going to lots of them. Is is well aware of the bird dogging phenomenon. It has no problem with it is not cynical about it being fake or false or phony or anything like that. She just sees it as like a good, healthy part of the process. And then
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: And then what?
JASON MOON: And then eventually Josh asked her if she was affiliated with any particular organizations.
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: Stop.
JOSH ROGERS: Are you affiliated with any advocacy group?
KATHY HOEY: I can’t really say
JOSH ROGERS: What do you mean you can’t really say.
KATHY HOEY: No, no because I’ve talked too much, but I am really here for myself.
JOSH ROGERS: OK. But I would take that as a yes. I see you winking.
JASON MOON: Yeah. So
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: No freaking way.
JASON MOON: Birddogger. Right in front of us! That's the thing. You can't spot em till it's too late.
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: Oh, my God. I can’t believe it.
JASON MOON: Yeah, it was great. She was like unmasked as a birddogger like right in front of us. And it's like almost the same experience as a candidate might have. Right. Like you go into a room you don't know, like which of these people are like,
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: quote unquote, regular people or not.
JASON MOON: Yeah, it's hard to know. Right? So so I'm I'm literally I'm scanning the audience at this Joe Biden thing. Who can be a birddogger? So it's probably not the the firefighter guys in the union who've endorsed Joe Biden
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: Because why, because they're wearing like a pro candidate look?
JASON MOON: Yes. It's like firefighters for Joe.
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: Oh got it. So what are the details that you're looking for to try and suss them out?
JASON MOON: Well, that's a good question. It's hard to know sometimes right? But one thing I did notice, sitting near the back, handful of younger people, they just don't seem that interested in what's going on. Once, like the surrogates begin their speeches and they're introducing like, you know, ‘Joe Biden is, he's gonna be the next president and we're all gonna go vote for him,’ you know, these like little mini rah-rah warm up acts. Right. And like there's always like a lot of like polite applause for them. And these people weren't applauding him. Hint number one, dead giveaway. Sure enough, Joe Biden starts speaking.
JOE BIDEN: And if you choose to go into public service, national service, national teachers from AmeriCorps, Peace Corps, become a paramedic, counseling victims of domestic violence, or working on the front lines against above climate change.
JASON MOON: The second he gets on a stump speech, in the words climate change, leave his lips by.
CLIMATE ACTIVISTS: Mic check! Mic check!
JASON MOON: So this is a this is like a demonstration. This is, this is like bird dogging, like turned up to eleven because they are not just here to like ask Joe Biden a tough question. They are here to disrupt
CLIMATE ACTIVISTS (chanting): Joe Biden our planet is dying
JASON MOON: And then they get the rest of the audience led by the firefighters. They get they have like a counter chant.
BIDEN SUPPORTERS (chanting): We want Joe, we want Joe
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: It's a chant off!
JASON MOON: It's a chant off! Anyway, it's like the Biden staff comes and they're like kind of like ushering them out of the room, like, yeah, great, you had your moment, like, get out.
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: What did you do
JASON MOON: I'm like, I gotta follow these people. I’ve got to talk to them about bird dogging and what they're doing, because this is all I can think about. Like, you know, Biden, it might be impeachment central happening in there with Biden. But, you know, I'm going with the birddoggers. Besides we had Josh in there so he could stay. Anyways. So I grabbed the mic. I'm like trying to follow them outside and there and they're like chanting like protest songs. And and the Biden staff were like, you know, it's private property. You’ve gotta get out of here.
CLIMATE ACTIVISTS (chanting) Which side are you on now, which side are you on.
JASON MOON: And, you know, I started to try to interview some of these activists and like as soon as we started talking, like all I could think about was the training because it was like, here it is. These people are using all of the tricks.
CLIMATE ACTIVIST: Well we just took action against Joe Biden because he is not a climate champion and we need a climate champion to be our next president.
JASON MOON: For instance, every question, nearly every question got back around to their answer to the idea that they needed a climate champion.
CLIMATE ACTIVIST: We're here because we need Joe Biden to be a climate champion and he won't even talk about the issue.
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: So when you hear that
CLIMATE ACTIVIST: Climate champion
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: Repeated over and over again,
CLIMATE ACTIVIST: Climate champion
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: What does that say to you?
JASON MOON: They were prepared. That was the soundbite again, that reverse engineering of the process. They knew that a reporter would come talk to them and they wanted to have control over what part of what they said would end up in a story that would be at the end of this process.
JASON MOON: Some people might take issue with tactics like, you know, interrupting an event like that. What would you say to them?
CLIMATE ACTIVIST: So Joe Biden is kind of notoriously known for a kind of not answering our questions. And we have asked questions over and over again. He either has denied our request or denied our ask or he just doesn't give a clear cut answer. So this is our last resort, but it is necessary for everyone to understand that this is the fight for our lives.
(music)
JASON: You know, there's two ways to see it. You can you can see the bird doggers preparing and coming up with their soundbites and planning everything and see that as very invented and not spontaneous. And that's true. But there's also something real about the fact that these people feel so passionate about these issues that they're willing to go through all that trouble, you know, to go to a training event and and practice with a mock candidate or to go to a Joe Biden event and interrupt a former vice president of the United States and get shouted down by hundreds of people. You know, there's passion behind that. So there is something real at the root of that. The way they're going about expressing that. Can feel and arguably is quite manufactured. But you could say the exact same thing about what's happening on the other side of the equation. With the candidates and the campaigns. You might the candidate might, you know, ex-presidential candidate deep down might really want to be president for all the right reasons. But they're still giving the same stump speech they've given 50,000 other times. And, you know, if for five minutes they're giving this stump speech and they're like on autopilot, they don't really realize what they're saying. I mean, you better believe that happens. But it’s still the way we do it. So it’s up to each person to decide, right, it’s what is authentic to you, it’s - what is the authentic experience to you?
CREDITS:
LAUREN CHOOLJIAN: Jason Moon is a reporter for NHPR.
He also is the host of the Bear Brook podcast - which if you haven’t listened to Bear Brook yet, I’m so happy for you and the listening experience you’re about to have.
Jason and Lucas Anderson created most of the music you’ve heard in this podcast - including this tune.
Other music from Blue Dot Sessions.
This episode was produced and mixed by me Lauren Chooljian.
Stranglehold is edited by NHPR’s Director of Content Maureen McMurray and News Director Dan Barrick.
Additional editing help came from Executive producer Erika Janik, Senior Producer Jack Rodolico and reporter Josh Rogers.
Rebecca Lavoie is NHPR’s Digital Director and Sara Plourde made our beautifully aggressive podcast graphics.
And additional thanks to Casey McDermott, Issac Grimm, Heather Stockwell, Josie Pinto, Lila Kohrman-Glaser, Sophonie Pierre-Michel.
And My dad - Barry Chooljian - who helped us name this podcast.
Stranglehold is a production of New Hampshire Public Radio.